Protecting Our Parks with Joe Ramos

Join us on this episode of the Public Lands Podcast as we talk to Joe Ramos, the Parks Business and Operations Manager, about the importance of parks and how we can protect them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hi everyone, I'm Kim. And I'm Finola.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Welcome to the Public Lands Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Okay, everybody. Today we have Joe Ramos, the Parks Business and Operations Manager for the Department of Public Lands.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Joe's job is extremely important. He is truly somebody around the office that is always willing to help out or to point you in the right direction, which we super appreciate more than he probably knows, or maybe he does, hopefully he does.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

And Joe cares really deeply about public lands and the work that we do to make an impact in the community, and we can't wait for you to learn more about him.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

So welcome, Joe. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being on. Absolutely. We are so excited, really, to have you here to talk about all things parks. Um so to start us off, we would love to know more about you outside of your job here. So I know you are a fellow New Yorker, which is very exciting. Um so can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing before Public Lands? When did you when did you come out west? Yeah, of course. What do you like to do outside of managing parks?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah. Uh that does take up a lot of my time. Um so yeah, born and raised in New York City, um, all the boroughs but the Bronx. Um went to high school on Staten Island, but grew up in sort of the more traditional boroughs, went to the military at 17, uh, did some time there, uh, two tours overseas, came back, used my GI Bill to go to college. Um, and then I kind of just was figuring stuff out. I got a degree from a pretty fancy school. Um, and I was just like, well, you know, I don't know what I want to do. I kind of want to just see stuff. And I knew I didn't want to live and die on Staten Island. Um, and so uh was finishing college in 2015, which makes me feel old saying that out loud now. Um, and a friend of mine reached out and was starting a business in Colorado, uh, an agricultural business, if you will. And so he asked me to come out, help work on their security plan. He was like, hey, I know you know the stuff. Would you help do our security plan for the business? I said, sure. And just kind of went out there on a whim, didn't really have a lot going on. Just me, uh, a friend of mine and a dog in a in a way too low to the ground Acura for the Rock for the Rocky Mountain West. Uh, but it was cool and we really loved Colorado, lived there for several years, and then kind of was figuring out what we wanted to do, got into the private sector. Well, I was in the private sector for a while, and then made the move to Utah right in the middle of COVID, actually. Uh July 1st, 2020, moved up to Summit County. I like to say Park City, so people think I'm fancy, but it's unincorporated Park City. They just slapped the zip code on there. Um, but did, you know, lived up there, um, was farming down in Sandpete County, so central Utah. Um, was far farming on like a land lease deal with a few folks, built out a complete farm from scratch on 26 acres, just raw land, and did everything from the irrigation, not electrical, because we don't play with electric. But everything else we did built all the equipment, serviced everything. And then um my wife and I, my wife's name is Mariah, uh, my wife and I were kind of talking about, you know, what do we want to do and if we're gonna stay in Utah. And um my degree is in political science, and most of my family are in the uh social services industries. My grandparents helped start the Cerebral Palsy Foundation way back in the day, or you know, probably 60, 70 years ago. And I kind of thought that's where I'd be, like in that same realm. And so when I first applied to Salt Lake City, I worked for the Heart team, the homeless engagement and response team. Um, and I was the rapid intervention coordinator. It was a new program, uh, first of its kind in the country, actually. And kind of just started there and in the process of that um met all the wonderful people at parks, because you know, parks aren't immune, unfortunately, to some of the same issues that affect a lot of major cities. And when this job, this role became available, I remember reading it and and kind of sitting on it for a few days and then talking to my wife, and I was like, hey, I know sometimes I can be crazy, but I'm either completely crazy or I can do this job really well, as it's described. And uh, as of two Fridays ago, I've now been here for three years.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Oh, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. 43 years. Wow, that's a really like meaningful journey to get you where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, and I left out a chunk. I was a reptile breeder for a while. We didn't really such an important conversation, you know. Uh I I started hanging out with some people from Florida, as as one does. Yeah, uh not in Florida, but in Colorado, and uh they were, you know, snake guys. And it's it's different when you're like a guy with a snake versus snake guy. And uh so we primarily bred reticulated pythons, uh, which are the longest species of snake in the world, not the heaviest, and a condas at the same length as a as a retick, will be three or four times the weight, the girth. Uh so yeah, at one point, sort of in between that Colorado U-Pod journey, uh, we had like 200 uh warehouse of 200 reptiles, a closed-door breeding facility. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, yeah. So did a bunch of stuff. And now we've been here. Um and then outside of work, uh three dogs and a cat and a snake. So do a lot of big dogs. Three big dogs, yeah, three rescue pit bull mixes. Um you guys have seen them sometimes when you bring them to the office. Yeah. Um, so hiking, park stuff, um spend a lot of time. We have a really nice patio uh where we live. So we have some garden boxes, do some gardening. Um, I watch a lot of TV, primarily for the writing. Um, I do have some guilty pleasure shows like 90-day fiance, but that's a that's a different thing. But I think sometimes, you know, when we were kids, they'd say, oh, TV is just kind of, you know, whatever. Um, you know, it'll rot your brain sort of thing. And um, for a while now, I think we've been in like the golden age of that. Um, for example, there's a show on Netflix, and I forget what it's called, so I'm not trying to plug it, but they it's about urban farming in in Atlanta. Oh, okay. And there's a woman who helps convert uh family backyards and homes and like homesteads into workable like ecology farms, which I think is kind of more in line with what we look for here. Yeah. Yeah. So just that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Oh my gosh. Okay, cool. I'm gonna have to watch that show. Yeah, me too. That's like up our alley.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

It's it's honestly, and it's it's very feel-good. Like the tone and everything is very like you're not going in for like emotional like drag. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah. Also, a show that is kind of similar that I just watched Zach Galifanakis has a new show about gardening on Netflix. Yes. Did you watch? Or like it's so short, but I was like, that was cute, feel good. Yeah. Yeah. So you should check that out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Similar vibes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

So other questions hit me with.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Yes, we're ready.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Okay, wait. So also, so you uh used your GIA bill to go to school, but aren't you also currently in GIS?

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah, yeah. I am in, I'm going for my master's uh in public administration. Um, because I spent so long kind of meandering, you know, sort of on the journey, not so much the destination. Um I don't have some of the same years of experience as some of my colleagues. And I recognize that, and I and I'm so grateful for you know everyone who's helped me and continues to help me, frankly, understand things to become better so I can, you know, we can better serve the public. But one of the ways I was like, well, how do I get better, right? How do I improve at what I do? And school is definitely helped with that. So I'm currently in my last semester of my MPA program at UVU. Um, so if all goes according to plan, uh August 14th or 18th, sometime before my birthday, which is September, we will be done. Master's degree, and when I finish my undergrad in fit 2015, I was like, I'm never going to school again. That's it, we're done. And it only took nine years before I was like, yeah, it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I mean, yeah, it's gonna it's gonna be great. And we'll have to have a little in-office party. I know. I was just thinking that. I was like, we're gonna have a celebration.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I have no idea what I'll do with my time. Like I like.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

But we've been taking up a ton, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I mean, it's a lot of stuff, and you know, certainly it's a it's a really uh sort of new program, but very well thought out, well fleshed out, very like well thought of. So the professors, I think, you know, who are very experienced in their own right, just because it's UVU, you know, not we're not getting it any easier per se. Yeah. Which is good. I mean, I'm learning a ton. And I get to put a lot of the uh academic assignments and apply them here. That's um to work immediately, like do financial analyses or do this or that. It's like, oh wait, I can use this for real things.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Okay, well, Joe, I feel like you kind of do a little bit of everything in the office. Everybody can depend on you for everything, which is great. But we would love to hear a little bit more about what your job entails because you oversee a large number of parks throughout the city in a variety of districts. So, what does a typical day look like?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Sure. Um, so uh job title notwithstanding, the sort of, I guess if you were to boil it down, the core function of what I do is the Salt Lake City Parks system is broken down into parks districts, um, sometimes referred to as just districts or maintenance districts, kind of a you know, some catch-all terms there. And currently we have five. We had six, but district six then became Trails and Natural Land, so it became its own division. Um, so I have, and then there's actually we have more than that, we have like nine, but numbered districts. The cemetery is its own thing, uh the regional athletic complex, and then the greenhouse team. So six numbered and then some sort of uh interestingly labeled ones, we'll say. And so currently I am the operations manager for districts three, four, five, and our greenhouse team, or greenhouse and horticulture team as I've taken to call them, um, with GHT just being an effective acronym. But what that means is more or less all the parks south of Fourth South here in Salt Lake, so from Fourth South to the boundary of South Salt Lake or West Valley, depending on if you're on the east or west side of the city. I'm ultimately responsible for what happens there. Um we don't do rec. Uh, I think that's a common misconception a lot of people are so used to because of TV and life, but parks and rec. Um, we were rec at one point before my time. Um the county, Salt Lake County currently does all the recreation facilities. So the pools and some of the more indoor facility stuff, the Northwest Rec Center. That's on them. So between all of those spaces, um, each district has its own supervisor, as you guys know, and then each uh supervisor directly supervises um about eight to ten full-time employees, probably three or four year-round part-time employees, and then uh as many as 16 to 18 seasonals that work for half the year. So number of employees ranges anywhere from 35-ish to not quite twice that um in the height of summer when we're in our busy season. Total spaces, oh probably 35 plus parks, um uh tons of miles of urban trails, so the Jordan River Trail, McClelland, Folsom, Nine Line, um, you know, Salt Lake City has a really robust and growing urban trail program, which is amazing. Um, and then our greenhouse team, uh, which currently we have one greenhouse. We are in the process of trying to get through, you know, designing another one. Um, and so that's also responsible for some really interesting specialty locations. So, for example, the International Peace Gardens, which is amazing, um, and does a ton of events, beautiful flowers. Uh, we also have the um model airport, an RC track that I don't think anyone knows is ours, way out west. No, what is it? Yeah, so we have a model airport, an RC race car track. Um you'll hear people say model port, and I was like, what is this word? I don't understand. Uh it is 7595 West California Av.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

So if you look it up, it's gonna come up as magna, but it's ours.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Um bring nose plugs because it does happen to be kind of close to the landfill, adjacent to the landfill. But um it is a runway uh with an overhead, like a little bit of a hanger. And the first time I went out there, I was like, oh, I'm thinking, I don't know, paper airplanes. I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah. No, these are $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, essentially a drone, but you know, a plane, and people have the VR goggles, they'll fly them all. It's amazing. And then that did so well and got so much activation that another community, which is RC like trucks and stuff, which also are expensive in their own right, were like, hey, can we get some shared space? So we do sweat equity with a couple of different groups and they build these crazy jumps and ramps and flips. I have to get out there. It's it's a little, it's a little remote, but it is really cool. And people are really passionate about both of those hobbies in their own way. So, you know, when we look at say allocating funding and things, it's it's easy to say, look, we have so many properties, not just mine, but across the entire department. And that's one of those ones that think, you know, due to good advocacy, you know, we're we're slowly but incrementally making improvements, and it is very cool. Go on a bright sunny day with no wind, you'll see a couple dozen people out there, and just it's it's it's very cool. It's I thought it would be less cool than it was, but I can't lie.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

It's pretty cool. Yeah, we should highlight that. That's cool. That's what I meant.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

So just cool specialty locations like that.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

You could you could go out there and get good. Pick up a new hobby. Yeah. Okay, so you mentioned districts like park districts, just to clarify, these are different than our council districts.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yes, parks districts do not align with city council districts. I don't know why. Uh geographically I mean. Yeah. So, you know, district uh council district one has a representative two, etc., uh one through seven, you know, is what the composition of Salt Lake City is. Uh like I said, we don't even have that many numbered parks districts, and they don't align uh for whatever reason. Before my time, my understanding from folks who have been here a little longer than we all have is when Salt Lake was a much smaller city going back 30 or 40 years, it was parks north and parks south. Wow. That's it. Smaller city, less spaces, a lot e less residents, probably less than half, you know, or so. And as time went on and the city kept urbanizing and growing, and people kind of realized what a cool hidden gem this is and started moving here, they wanted more parks. Yeah. And more parks means more parks employees. And you know, without putting too much of a burden on any one supervisor, manager, director, the easiest thing to do is to, you know, compart or segment and compartmentalize that into different parks districts.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah. Well that that's good for people to know though, just because I even still get confused. Parks district. Yeah, so council district itself.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

There's some there's some pretty interesting uh boundaries and markers, but the easiest way to look at it would be parks district one is sort of the northwest part of the city, but does include Pioneer Park, so kind of going out that way. Two is sort of the east side of the city, so foothills, the U, uh northeast, excuse me. Three is Central City, Sugar House, uh Liberty Wells neighborhoods. So everything from Parley's Way Park all the way to Liberty Park.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Uh actually technically to Upper Washington Park, uh exit 137 on I-80 up the canyon is still in our system. Uh District 4 is Central City, um, Poplar Grove, Glendale neighborhoods. So our new Glendale Regional Park, City Hall, Library Square, and then District 5 is our outlier. That's sort of everything from that model port at 7,500 west all the way to Foothill Islands on the east side of the city. So all of our urban trails, um irrigated medians, islands, roadways, uh, to include the entire Jordan River Trail, Three Creeks Confluence.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Um, so those are our numbered districts, and then we have our um and then our sort of specialty districts. So we have the Greenhouse and Horticulture team does most of the flowers you're gonna see uh regardless of space. So Liberty Tennis Center, uh, Ninth South, Ninth East, up by the um uh kind of where those cute cute little shops are. Oh yeah. Um the Peace Gardens, like I said, uh Poplar Grove Park, Toffer Park, a lot of our park spaces. Obviously, the region athletic complex is their own thing, the cemetery, and then I feel like I'm leaving someone out and it's gonna bother me and I can't remember.

unknown 15:59

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Oh, and our property maintenance team, of course. Yeah, that just does everything for everybody, and they kind of cover the whole city.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Really, really hard work, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Wow, amazing. Yeah, I I don't think I was wrapping my head around all of that, like the the flower spaces, like the media. There's a lot that goes into it.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, each each, you know, one of the things that I think is so interesting, and I never thought about it this way, and I've been going to parks my whole life. Born and raised in New York City, parks are a respite, right? You can't wait to get somewhere green, splash pads, playgrounds, especially when you're a kid. Until I got a little older, and really until I started doing it as a profession, I never could have understood what goes into a park. Regardless if it's a teeny tiny little pocket park or a little community park, all the way up to, you know, a uh several dozen acre regional park. Each one of those is their own ecosystem, their own city almost. And they all have their little nuances and their their sort of regular crowds and the people you expect to see. And there's so much that goes into it. And, you know, it's really cool that we are one, investing the money, the city is investing the money, but also not just in money with people, with time, you know, to do all the things we're doing. Because uh without being too cheesy, parks are pretty cool, and they're definitely like a really important part of the overall like makeup of any really anywhere. I don't even want to just say city, even country, you know, you go to rural counties and they have their dedicated public lands and green spaces, and I think it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, it's really really important for people to connect with where they live. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Yeah, yeah. Um, so you have business and operations in your title. Can you talk a little bit about I mean, I when I think of parks and like managing them, I think I automatically think of the operations side of it, and maybe many folks do operations as in, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Um like irrigation lines, restroom things, um maybe maybe uh managing the amenities that are there. Um, but what is what's business? Like what does business work like in the parks?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Sure. So my understanding uh about this is so that's a really unique title, right? Like no other operations manager that I'm aware of here in the department, and I don't think there's too many else in the city, I might be a one of one. Um so the previous parks director, who's moved on to other jobs now, um, was looking for someone kind of, I think with a unique background, or let's say a non-traditional background. And without, you know, I wasn't here, I wasn't interview, you know, interviewing or on the panel, excuse me. I don't think they either got what they were looking for or it didn't really fit the bill. I can't speak to what they were thinking. But the job went out originally as an operations manager, full stop, just like any other job. And that just wasn't it. So they thought about it under the previous administration, and they added the business sort of facet in there, because I think they wanted people who or candidates, you know, I just happen to be the guy, could have been someone else, that were able to see the parks both sort of in their individual pieces in the sense that, okay, yes, this needs to be fixed, this playground, this slide, this bathroom. But what does that ecosystem look like? What does that look like holistically? And you know, what I tell our staff and even the supervisors is people hear business and they think profit because it's America, that makes total sense. We are not we're you know a nonprofit entity, we're a government institution, we don't make any money, our goal isn't to make money, you know, but our our business, at least if you ask me, is creating really good memories for people. And and you know, it's not a tagline, you know, no one's forcing me to say that sort of thing. But that's what makes parks special to me. Like what business should we in? Yeah, we're in the business of cutting grass, we're in the business of fixing bathrooms, of making sure people can recreate and play sports. But if you really boil it down, most of the time it's like, oh, remember when we did that thing? That's what I look at as the business of parks. Now, there is a financial side to parks, as we kind of mentioned. It costs an immense amount of money to train all the staff, keep all the vehicles, all the lawnmowers, all of the specialty equipment, all of the sort of different pieces and materials that we need, in addition to all of our utilities. I don't think people think we pay bills because we're with the city. So, like we pay our water bill, we pay our power bill, you know, all of our utilities, same as everyone else. Um, and we usually have pretty high bills because parks will have multiple restrooms or multiple amenities. Um, and then it's the other part of the business side, at least as I see it, is a lot of it is liaison work. So we'll take Liberty Park for an example. Um, Liberty Park has the tennis center that's operated by a third-party vendor, the Chase Home Museum, Liberty Amusement, so the concessions area, um, Youth City, which is a city, you know, internal program, but still a different department in the city. Um, and then we have the Tracy Avi area. So just in that one park, granted, biggest park in the city, there's five different essentially organizations or agencies that all have their own mission statement, their own goals, their own agendas, and they are operating essentially on the space that we care for. I don't want to say my space or our space, but the space that we've been entrusted to Stewart. And so a big part of that is managing those professional relationships to say, hey, I would love, I would love for you guys to do a 3 a.m. go watch the bird. I'm making that up, go watch the birds walk, but hey, you can't, and here's why. Or hey, you know, you absolutely can have a wedding that goes an hour over curfew, provided we do this paperwork or we do these sort of forms. And so it's, you know, can't say yes to everybody as much as I want to, but it's managing those professional relationships because you know, in addition to what our staff does every day, those are the things that really make any city pop, right? Every city has their little something, and what the Aviary does, what the Chase Home Museum, what all these vendors can bring to the park, you know, in a lot of different cases really works. The other side of the business, if we were to look at the public as our clients, you know, if this was a traditional business structure, keep the clients happy. And that can be difficult and challenging because especially when it comes to public lands, people want different. Things. I had three phone calls last week, all about the same trail, I won't say which one, that somebody was over the moon with the work that the team had done. This looks amazing. I can't believe it. Just nothing but praise. The next two phone calls were almost the exact opposite. Why would you? And it was supposed to be, and and you know, and I just was like kind of put it on mute for a second and speaking with that supervisor, I was like, what an interesting thing. You know, I don't get upset, everyone has a right to an opinion, I don't take it personal, just they they are passionate and we love that. But I was just like, what an interesting ride and high one moment, and kind of you know, get knocked down to reality the next. So the other thing is client or constituent expectations to bring it back around, and that's the business side of it, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah, and like you truly can't please everybody with any project. And we've talked about it in some of our other episodes that like we're lucky that we have like people who live in the city who do care and share their opinions because that's how changes get made. Yeah. But it is tough to kind of balance, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, yeah, and you know, it's one of the things where there's a fine line, and just you know, my thoughts, fine line between pride in a public space and hey, I take, you know, my dogs to the park, say we're down where I live every day. It can feel sometimes like if I see someone doing something that they shouldn't be doing, I don't feel as if I'm obligated to say something, but I want to. Hey, could you not do whatever you're doing? Or hey, could you put your dog on a leash? And I'm not at work, I'm just a private, you know, Joe going about his life. And I understand how people love our parks here in the city so much that they feel that as well. That's awesome. We love people who are passionate, we love people who want to help protect and preserve our spaces. Where it can get a little dicey is people can sometimes get a sense of ownership over those spaces. And that I think becomes one of the challenging parts where it's like, I love that you love that space, but it's not mine, it's not yours, it's not that person's, it's the public's altogether. And part of my job is making sure that, you know, not only do we keep people, I'll say satisfied, happy, maybe too strong a word, but that when we're in the process of doing that, multiple voices get included in the conversation. And it's not just, hey, this is what I think is best or you think is best or this group or that group, and that we're giving equal weight in measure. It's why we do such um robust community engagement and so many sessions. Uh, you know, we'll have multiple three or four sessions, depending on the scale of the project, to make sure that not there isn't one group that dominates the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

So thinking about the spaces that you do help oversee, is there a specific space that you've seen the most like progress in or that you feel really proud of the work that's been done?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. Um so wow. So we're in a unique, interesting time right now in public lands, right? Uh back in November 2022, Salt Lake City voters passed the Go Bond, the general obligation bond, for I believe $83.5 million. Um, by a pretty good margin, like 71% approval of 72%, something like that, maybe even a little higher. And so we're currently in the implementation phase for many of those projects. Um, well, a lot of phases, but it's interesting to see and to play a part in helping to not only make the the parks run, make sure people show up to work, make sure the grass is cut, make sure we don't have any slip and fall hazards, make sure the the toilets flush the way they should, sort of the nuts and bolts work, but getting to see behind the scene um and helping do some of the design and sit in on these meetings. I have one later today, uh, for phase two for Glendale Park. For our new park. Phase one opened in December. Um, and so something I think I'm personally proud of is helping to look at what the space could be and what it should be for different groups of people behind the scenes, right? Because I think it's easy to say, hey, that looks great, but there's so much, there's years and years of planning and design and documentation and permitting, and I don't do so much of the permitting because that it's a lot, but at least the design and getting to be the more creative side of things, and that's something that I really like. I think Glendale's a great example. Uh Glendale Park was previously the site of Seven Canyons or Oh Raging Raging Waters, yep. Sorry, not native, yeah. No, no, no. But Raging Waters, and it sat, you know, as a sort of derelict site for a long time and attracted a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

I remember it because I feel like I went there as a kid, and then I just drove past in its like in-between phase. So it's exciting that the property is getting a new life.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, and so you know, it was years of of before I was, you know, any of us were here buying the property, real estate team with the city, all the different, you know, departments and divisions that came to make it happen. And then when we got into the design phase, you know, people want everything, and I love that, and I love the ways that we can try to make those things happen. But something I was really proud of is that was my first project. Uh, I think my second or third day here, they were like, Okay, you're one of the, you know, I don't want to say managers, but you know, contributors to this project. Okay, have at it. And I'm like, what does that mean? I don't know anything yet. And you know, from that, from my third day till that park opening uh this past December 13th, I want to say. So two and a half years. So essentially my first two and a half years here, that was the longest project we had come to fruition. And now uh we're pretty far along. I won't say how far, just in case anything changes, but we're pretty far along in the phase two design. Um, we've taken phase two and three, put them together, so this will be the rest of the park.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

So initially it was gonna be a three-phase deal going out till maybe 2029, 2030, even. That's all been alighted together to now this is the everything else. And so that's something I'm really proud of. Something I'm really proud of that I've seen the teams do. Um, because I'm not a take credit guy, it feels awkward. Um, we've done some, I would say every district of the ones I manage have done some really cool things. Um, just at a glance. Uh, so the middle of Liberty Park is used to be the old 600 East. It was actually a road, uh that central promenade. Um yeah, if you go back, there's historical photos. Yeah.

unknown 28:12

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

And then you can go halfway into the park, and it used to be just kind of a almost like a roundabout or a cul-de-sac, and then you can still drive out. Yeah. And so that requires there's these beautiful, oh, I should know this. Um, I forget because I have to think about it right now. The trees that go down the middle, and as soon as I stop thinking about it, it's gonna come back to me. Um they're big. They're massive, and they're hundred, hundred and fifty-ish, you know, nylon years old. And so it takes a lot of care for those trees. And so last summer, yeah, last summer, uh, for the first time in five or six years, and I've only been here three, we were able to, with the help of volunteers and our community engagement team and our staff, remulch uh that entire thing. And essentially, you know, a couple week period took a little longer than we thought, but we were absolutely able to get that done. That was super cool, and change the entire aesthetic of the park, change the feel, adds to the health and vitality of those trees. Absolutely amazing. Um, in our parks district four, they got the Glendale Regional Park Project, they're now responsible for that. So I won't touch that one exactly again, but we also have all of our downtown spaces, and so last year was a pretty hot summer, pretty, pretty, you know, a lot going on with our climate here in the Rocky Mount West. And the lawn at City and County Building turned to dust, right? Multiple weeks of events, we love events, we love these big spaces, but they do they do their wear and tear.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

They do wear and tear. And that time is coming right now. Yes, we are in it right now.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And we, that team, I won't say we, because I just made sure everyone did what they're supposed to, um, rehabbed all of those spaces in uh you know before the end of the summer, had everything absolutely beautiful, and more important, we developed a procedure so it's not just a one-trick sort of pony. We now built a protocol around doing that and how you uh rehab it.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

And then and like people wouldn't think about that. Like they go to the Pride Festival and it's such a joyous celebration, but like that's thousands of people, like many weekends in a row.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, absolutely. Pretty much the whole summer, yeah. And then you know, Twilight Film Series and all this, yeah. And then our parks district five, we took over uh all of the rest of the nine line, or at least what's built now. So, excuse me, previously it was from about Redwood Road-ish to about third west. We've now taken over maintenance for the majority or for the rest of what's built, all the way up to the whale, so all the way up to about Lincoln Street or about 10th East, 11th East. And um, in addition to a couple of other projects that we've had going, the Nine Line Orchard Opening, the Backman Community Open Space Project. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but for the kids, which is awesome. And then our greenhouse team has just been crushing it. We've had more uh activation in the Peace Gardens, we've replanted, uh they're called urns, uh the north end of Liberty Park, the two sort of column pillars they're getting planted this week. So just next time you're there, look up and you'll see some beautiful um, I want to say it's like a yeah, sweet potato vine. I was like, potato plant, but not that. Sweet potato vine and all these really robust sort of both perennial and annual flowers growing. And so we're really, you know, being thoughtful about water use and turf um by helping to supplement that with native plantings and and some ornamental plantings as well. And we've really asked a lot of that team in the last 18 months and they've stepped up. So more credit to them than me. I just get to do behind-the-scenes stuff, but they're the ones who make those spaces look really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Well, but you're such a good hype person for like your team, and I feel like that's really core to this role is being a big advocate for the people that you work with, which you definitely are.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Thank you. Yeah, you have to be. You know, I think something that goes along with doing any civic service. If it's this, if it's streets, utilities, waste and recycling, anything is there's a certain because it's it's uh such a crucial thing, people tend to approach it with that same attitude of put my head down, get the job done, right? Don't no fuss, no muss, I got a job to do. And you know, we love that. Love people who who, you know, buckle down and get it done, but they're not always the best advocate for themselves. And I'm not always the best advocate for myself. I'm I'm spent more time working in outdoor jobs than indoor ones, and sometimes you gotta go out there and do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

But I think one of the biggest things that you know often can get overlooked is the sheer amount of work that goes into these spaces, and that someone shows up, you know, to do it well, you know, I would say every day, pretty much, and early, like it's not easy, like we get to roll in like at a normal hour, but people are really up and taking care of these spaces. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

So I mean, you know, and actually today was that day for me, um, filling in some spots for some folks who are out. But yeah, the staff work six to two thirty, some cases a little earlier, a little later, maybe overnight shifts. If we have to do um, let's say a paint, you know, painting something that we don't want to have to close down a whole section of a park to, like light poles or you know, utilities boxes, things like that, where it just makes more sense to come in at 10 or 11 at night with with the park closing around 11 to get two or three hours that way. Um, and so you gotta imagine, you know, for most of those people, if they're here in the building, boots on at 6 a.m., I don't know, get up at 4 30, 4 45, out the door by 5-ish, depending on where you live, 5 30. And you know, you do get to go home early, you beat traffic most of the time, yeah, which is nice, but it's a lot, and it's and that's rain, snow, shine, you know, shine, it's cold, you're fighting the elements, and so yeah, really, really hardworking teams.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yeah, working in the elements is no joke. For sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, I you said something earlier that I kind of am just curious about when you were talking about Glendale, you were talking about um getting to see I'm gonna butcher it, but it was like the decisions behind the scenes that people like people want things and you get to see like what they want behind. Is that was that in regard to like all the planning stuff that's going on, or is there sure so yeah, something else there?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

A little bit. So so there's uh let's say and you know, I'll give you just sort of a lifecycle of that. The city buys that property, they just say, hey, we want to build a park. There's all the zoning, all the permits, stuff that's way above my pay grade. Then we do all the community engagement. So, hey, what do you want to see? What do you want to see? Kind of like I mentioned a little bit ago. And then we now have, let's say, a master plan, or or you know, we had one available still online, or a rendering. Great, that's what we that's that's the goal, you know. We put it out there sort of as this, you know, tack it on the wall, that's your goal. How do we get there? How do we more importantly, how do we get there in this amount of time and with this amount of money? And usually one or both of those things is not quite enough. Um, and so in terms of seeing behind the scenes, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of micro decisions and probably several dozen to let's say, you know, let's say less than a hundred major decisions that go into a project of that scale, complete from you know what was a water park, getting rid of all of that, and and completely giving a new you know lease on life. And so it might be something as simple as do we go with this slide or that slide, which okay, seems kind of you know not that important, but what age group is that designed for? What age group is this designed for? Does that material get hotter in the sun? Does that material hold up to cold, the type of cold if we get if we get a winter here? Yeah. Does that have a longer or shorter warranty from that manufacturer? And that's just a small decision. All the way up to a bigger decision, let's say, hey, where are we gonna put the playground? How many spots do we need in the parking lot? What does the data show us? How many um ADA spots do we need? How many restrooms do we need? Um, to sort of, and those are larger decisions in the sense that that infrastructure costs hundreds of thousands, in cases millions of dollars. And once it's in the ground, it's pretty hard to move it. Um and so it's really interesting because it's certainly not just me, it's it's you know, our wonderful landscape architects, our planners, our um contracted design firms, uh construction companies, all the people we work with, our engineering department and ACM group, uh architecture and construction management, I think is what they're called now. And it's it's dozens and dozens of people. And ultimately, you know, we all have to find a way, even internally, to agree. Okay, this is the best decision. And that can be a little contentious, but I like seeing one, certainly, how much everyone cares and how much they want to contribute. Rarely, if ever, is there a eh, whatever, just pick that thing, it looks fine. You know, that's that's almost never the case, unless it's like, hey, what color do you want that door to be? You know, something sort of really small. But not only do the employees across the city who help contribute to these projects really care, but then it's hey, we have to agree because I care as much as you do, and I want this and you want that. And what I like seeing in terms of decision making is how both as individuals and as a let's say a committee or or or a group, everyone's able to kind of put their personal wants, thoughts, hey, I want to so that I know what's best. Everyone puts that aside for the community and for what's best for the constituents. And I I think that's really cool. And there's you know, there's a million examples of every piece of play equipment has those same decision-making kind of pros and cons. Is this the best? Is that the best? Is this affordable? Does it last? Does the manufacturer have a good reputation? Are they gonna pack up shop and disappear? Sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, that's that's interesting. And I I kind of like to hear that there's not really many easy decisions with a project like that because it shows how much everybody cares, and I think it makes that final product so much more rewarding. It does.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

I mean, it sounds it sounds kind of egotistical, but it does. And the only decisions that are easy are the ones you made yesterday. Because at that point, if you're either, hey, we'll see what happens when it gets there, like this was the choice we've made with it, and we will walk this path now. And if you get there and you realize maybe you need to need to realign, that's totally normal. It not everything's perfect, rarely anything is. But at least the decision's made and the progress is moving. Um, I think a lot of times people get very upset with, and I do as well a little bit, um, why does government take so long? Why does everything this? And it's hey, we're I had an old uh director here at Salt Lake, uh, who had I forget what they left to do, but they left uh the city a couple years ago to do something really cool. And they said, Hey, we are paid to be deliberate. And it was such an interesting, I'd never thought about it because I New York, I move fast, walk fast, talk fast. And they were like, hey, love it, love the energy, but just let's think about what you just said. And and it was a very mentoring, it wasn't a chastising moment, it was a mentoring moment, and why that could maybe not be the best for the full range of people that this program uh would apply to. And I felt silly once I was given some guidance and some mentorship, which gotta be coachable, just a good rule in life. And what he said, like I said, was you know, he goes, We were paid to be deliberate, we're paid to move at a certain speed. And there are plenty of mechanisms, plenty of things in life. You want to go buy a car and you have the money and you have the you know credit, whatever it is, they will sell you a car today, right now. You want to go buy a sandwich, you'll get it even faster. You want to, you know, things like that. All the way up, you have the money to buy a home. You know, it can be a major thing. Cool. We are by nature, by design, representing a very diverse population, very, you know, uh changing community uh in terms of needs, demographics, age groups, all the sort of different metrics. And we have to be thoughtful about each and every one of those, you know, sort of groups and and constituencies. And part of that is is moving a little slower.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, and I feel like it's kind of hard, but we also have to be so future thinking because like right now um Rotary Play Park is getting redone, and like I remember that from when I was younger, but like that still then has to last the next and serve the next 20 or however many years of people. So that's kind of a hard but fun mindset to jump into.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

It is, yeah. Yeah, working in the present and needing to build in the present, because it's one thing to be sort of theoretical. Hey, we this is what we think it might be like. Let's write it on a cocktail napkin, put it in a file somewhere, come back to that in 20 years, see if our predictions are true. We're you know building infrastructure, you know, we're building things that people are gonna use every day and that they're gonna interact with, and children especially are gonna interact with. And how do we conceive of the ideas and and conceptualize the ideas that will not only stand the test of time, that in the sense that they're built well and they're durable and they're safe, but that are gonna be appealing. You know, what I saw I had a beeper as a kid, and I'm not even that old, you know, only for like two years, but I had a beeper as a kid. Yeah, and now I can watch YouTube on my phone in my pocket, like you know, sort of thing, and listen to people from across the world podcasts and things. And so just in you know, my lifetime, and I'm not even 40 yet, how much things have changed, how much play features have changed. Yeah, I go to our parks now, some of the newer ones, I'm like, why didn't we have that? These cool climbers and spinners and all these cool things. And so, you know, absolutely you're right, keeping that future-minded or open to what the future might bring sort of attitude is really important.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Yeah, and uh you said you were happy about that. I'm happy to know too that you're a part of these decisions, or someone in your position is absolutely I didn't know. Yeah, I yeah, exactly. I didn't know that you're with um with the folks in Glendale. Like it makes so much sense because you're there all the time. And not to say that the planners and the landscape architects and all these other people don't have like valuable feedback and experience, but you are there every day, you are working with constituents, you know what the weather is like, more or less, and and how things are gonna hold up. So that's great to know that you are with them on that.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

That is a fundamental, just just integral, uh you can use any synonym you want, part of like what makes not only the Department of Public Lands work, but I would argue probably most parks departments or divisions that I've never visited. If you that relationship between you know what we call our OM team or operations and maintenance or operation management team, and our landscape architects or planning design team, that's crucial. Um, a really good example being let's say you are a race car driver, right? Think about how much goes in. Yeah, there's one guy or gal or person who drives the vehicle who makes sure that. Think about how many people take care of that, right? How many people actually make sure that the tires go on right, that it has oil, that it's tuned. Now think about all the people you never see who go behind that, who design it, who make sure it's aerodynamic, who make sure that, you know, hoses and tubes and all the things that we're supposed to do. Imagine if those people who, you know, in this technology are landscape architects and planning design folks never talk to the driver, or never talk to the people who maintenance the car, who actually, you know, get out there and make sure it runs right on race day. That's that's that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Because they can design beautiful stuff, right? They have that background, those skill sets far better than I ever will. Um, but if they build something that we can't maintain or that you know we don't feel is is maybe what the constituents want or what the you know these different neighborhood groups want, then it it might look nice, but if it doesn't get used, what's the point? And vice versa, if we you know can't maintain things and they design it for us and we were to sort of not hold up our end of the agreement, it doesn't make anyone look good. And so for as much as I'm a go fast and get things done kind of guy, I can't say enough how much it has been really amazing over the last three now three plus years, three years and two weeks to work with uh our landscape architects and planning design folks because it's you know hand in glove.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

You are so invested in the work that you do. It's clear the way that you speak about it and the way that you are so willing to help us all here with any questions that we ever have about parks or um what you do. And I guess we're curious what keeps you going on that inspired? Is are is it the city itself, or maybe there are other parks and the country, city departments that you see that motivated on it?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Um great question. Um, couple of things there. It's it's funny because I have a very r relevant example. So my mom always said it doesn't cost anything to be nice, and as sort of just as much of a truism as that is, I didn't have the emotional development to embody that for a long time, just a me thing. And so as I got older and you know, just kind of becoming the person I wanted to be, you'll hear me say, like, I'm not the Joe I want to be today, or you know, the Joe I wanted to bring to work today. I made sort of a commitment to myself to be like, hey, like, it doesn't cost anything nice. Like, if people need help and I'm in a position to help, why not? Yeah. And you know, there's no credit, there's no accolades, I don't make extra money, just why not? If it makes your day a little easier and and I can do it, if I can't help, I can't help. You know, I'm not a miracle worker, but if I can, why not? Just as a personal philosophy. But then in terms of like this and what I do specifically, yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. My wife and I, Memorial Day yesterday, so we had the day off. Um, went, they built a new park down by me in Utah County, um, that I'm not gonna plug, you'll have to find it for yourselves. Um, but it has a 35-foot-tall hot air balloon, um, like play feature. Wow. And I was like, okay, clearly this is uh an art piece, right? Or some sort of sculpture. Nope, it is a play feature, and I've never seen that. And so we took on our day off, went and looked at the parks, uh, took tons of pictures, look at how they did this or that. And I don't know, it's just like it didn't, it's enough to there's enough components of any park, enough different facets, features. One to just keep me engaged at the speed I like to move, but then two, you know, and I swear this is true, this is a real thing. I wouldn't make this up. We're walking through the park, and just my wife and I, no kids, and we're just kind of checking it out, and there's tons of families playing, and there's uh two little boys, probably brothers, come running by and they're like, Look at that, look at this. And the older brother, I'm not good at kids' ages, maybe 10, 11, was like, This is such a cool park. And and I looked at my wife and I was like, Well, that's all the endorsement you need. And I had nothing to do with that project, I just happened to live nearby, and I didn't feel any, you know, pride, you know, wasn't trying to like claim accolades or acclaim for anything, but it felt almost in a, and I guess it's the empathy or the sort of shared sense of like, look at what a good time people are having in this space. And part of what I do here in Salt Lake is make that happen for people. And I don't know, I there's always a problem to solve. There's always something that needs to be addressed. There's rarely a sit back in the office and you know, just kind of plug through emails day, although we have those days too, um, every so often, you know, usually once a quarter, you just gotta get it done.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

But no, you're up, you're out, you're uh you're very much like an in-the-space kind of person.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

It's hard to I found at the outset it was very hard to understand what managing parks was like and and helping people and you know managing these professional relationships from behind a desk from from especially where you know where we are in the city, we're kind of less centrally located, so it's not like you'd be like, hey, just stop by the office. But I don't know, I just love it. And and I remember leaving yesterday and saying my wife, and I was like, hey, like, I don't know if this is what I want to do forever. You know, I I think you know, I'll see where life takes me as it has so far, it got me here, and I feel all right about it. But like for now, like I love this, it's so cool. And there's so much you can learn and do, and no matter what you're sort of interested in, either personally or professionally, if you want to learn about wildlife, you can focus on wildlife. You want to learn about playgrounds, construction, engineering, uh, tensile strength. You want to learn about like viscosity of different like there's anything you want to learn about, like ponds, there is something in a park because it is just this little, you know, sort of uh amalgam of all these different things that you can do. And I have enough ADHD to make all those things interesting.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

But I think it's really clear that you do love this, and I think everybody feels that when they work with you. Yeah, and you have made my days easier, you've made your 100%. It's just nice to work with people like you.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

So I thank you. I appreciate that. I I do. I'm not good at taking compliments, I'm probably a little red. Well, but I appreciate that. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it's one of those things where we're all on the same team. Even if you don't work in this building, another department, it our parks would not look so good if waste and recycling didn't pick up their stuff. Absolutely. They would not look so good if public utilities didn't fix what they need to fix. Or, you know, all the other, it's it's as cliche as cheesy as it sounds, like it takes everyone. Yeah. And I'm glad I just get to be one thing. And you know, what I tell people is for however long I get to play this little minuscule role time-wise of stewardship, I try to do it my best. If you think about to go back to Liberty Park, sort of as the last thing I'll say, the park's been there since 1853. Even if I did the rest of my career, let's say 25 years with Salt Lake City, that 30-ish total years compared to at that point, the park will be almost, you know, 200 years old. It's not insignificant, but it's a drop in the bucket for how long that park has been there and how long it will be there. And I just want to make sure that, you know, if you look back on Joe's chapter in there, it's like, yeah, oh that guy was alright, he knew what he was doing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

No, you've you've made a big impact already. I feel like that's just a perfect note to kind of wrap up on. And we're we've appreciated you coming out here, well, coming to the pod to be on the podcast. This is cool. I like this.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

I was curious what this was gonna be, and I think this is a perfect use of the space.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Oh, well, thanks. But we appreciate it, and we know people will really love like having heard your insight on kind of what it takes to like keep these spaces going and to create them in the first place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yeah, and if just uh the one shameless plug I will make uh get out and volunteer in parks. If anyone wants to come out and volunteer, we're always looking for folks, and we could always use a little bit of help if they want to learn firsthand what it takes.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

100%. Yeah, we have some great stewardship opportunities coming up in June. Yeah. Just posted about it. Yeah, we'll make it happen. Yeah, thanks, Joe. Thank you guys, Joe. No, it's just fun. Thank you all for joining us for this week's episode of the Public Lands Podcast. Chat soon, and we'll see you on the trail.